An Oldie but Goodie
When God's people band together, even people who may not affirm their faith yet, but anyone who will band together in community, and bow down and humble themselves before God, something amazing happens. . .
If you're frustrated about what to do, about what's going on with you, maybe the first and the best thing you can do is bow on your knee and humble yourself before God and admit your powerlessness and plead for His mercy and grace and for His strength and power to abound in your life and our land.
That's from a blog post by David Foster in September 2005.
posted by Jared @ 10:24 AM
19 comments
19 Comments:
I'm just wondering whenever I scan this blog, If Jared and Judas and all these other people that are taking their time and energy to point fingers at what David Foster has done, if any of them were in the room when any of it happened. I don't know how you all got so judgemental. You are like little gods who seem to think you know everything- every thought, every word, everything everyone has done. Wow....to know so much. I'm just wondering when all the logs will come out of your own eyes- sure spending a lot of energy and time on other's mistakes.
Michele, take a look at all the things I've posted on this site. If you're honest, you'll see I've spent comparatively little time talking about David Foster. And when I have, not all of it has been negative. (Feel free to visit the "Why I Like Dr. Foster" post, if you want.)
Do you think everyone is lying? Everybody? Elders, staff, etc. All lying? Lionel Cartright, whom Dr. Foster himself said was his best friend, is lying?
You don't have to have been in the room to see that from a wide body of witnesses and a wide documentation of abuse and misbehavior, that Dr. Foster has a problem.
I'm spending a lot of time and energy because our church deserves it. I'm sorry if you think that effort unworthy.
Btw, why is it wrong for me to point out the mistakes of Dr. Foster but okay for you to point out mine? Aren't you judging my heart?
Everybody? I know 2 staff members who don't feel the same way. Judging your heart? No. I am judging that you are nauseatingly acting like you know it all. Yes, I believe you have to have been in the room, present, for yourself, to have heard and know it all.
I never said who I believe is right and who I believe is wrong. I in fact, think that they are all wrong, and cleaning house is the best option. I see one other elder has flown the coop.
On a sidenote, I would love it if all attention to the talkbcc forum would cease- all links, etc. Those people on there are mostly name calling (Matt had several words for DF) and I find that amazing, seeing as the whole issue with Foster was supposedly anger and namecalling. So why are we promoting websites where hypocritical BCC members are doing the same? That WILL tear apart the church.
I am judging that you are nauseatingly acting like you know it all.
So it's okay to judge some things, not others? I'm confused. It's wrong for me to say what Dr. Foster did was wrong; it's okay for you to say what I'm doing is wrong. It's questionable if a guy has a history with a wide variety of people of abuse; it's way out of line for a guy to talk about that history.
Great balance.
Yes, I believe you have to have been in the room, present, for yourself, to have heard and know it all.
So they are all lying, I guess. Ohh-kay.
Btw, this sort of proof-need would basically end our court system as we know it.
I see one other elder has flown the coop.
If you're talking about Larry Hall, he stepped down after receiving email threats from Dr. Foster's advisor. He has publicly stated his support for the decision.
As for your sidenote, I agree the TalkBCC Forum is disgusting. I am not promoting it any more than I'm promoting Dr. Foster's sites. I link to them as informational resources, but I will be honest in saying I've considered delinking the forum and still may do so. I have also privately messaged someone about altering his language there.
You are right. I probably am judging. But as I said, I am not saying that David Foster was right. I am saying, I think they ALL are wrong. Wrong in the attitudes and wrong in the decisions and wrong in the way it was all handled. But it's like it is a contest on here, to see how much we can say the elders did right, and how much we can say Foster did wrong. Let's face it. They ALL screwed up, one way or the other. I never said anyone was lying. I DO think exaggeration comes about, on all ends, when things get hot and things get out in the open. People want to have others be on their 'side' so they embellish. It's human nature.
As for the court system- you were never called to be on the jury. I wasn't either. Remember? That's why because of that, I don't trust anyone involved. It will take time for me to trust any of them again. Actually I am not talking about Larry Hall. I knew about him. I am talking about Tom Parrish. If you go to the church website under About BCC and governance, the elders are listed. Tom Parrish is not on there. As far as I am concerned, I think they have all done their job. I would like to see them all step down and start over.
I should have also added, that in my opinion, which no one asked me, but if a LARGE forum that was set up like a presidential debate, where Fosters were on one side, and elders were on the other, and the congregation could have asked questions by submitting them in writing, and a mediator had been there to throw anyone unruly out and to control the conversation- and a recorder would have been on to record for people who missed it- and it would have gone however long it needed to- and the whole thing would have come out in one swoop, and both sides would have had the opportunity to speak in the same setting- if all that had happened- then I might be more satisfied. But It didn't. As far as I am concerned, that is everyone's fault. I love Dave, but he did the bylaws where we didn't have a vote and that was his error. I know and respect 4 elders, but I believe small cottage meetings are ridiculous because the stories get diluted and changed up and all that jazz. So no, I don't buy it all. None of it. Bits and pieces of everything yes, but the whole thing- nope.
They all got together and put their careers, livelihoods, and reputations on the line for something they all made up.
Fair enough.
I trust you've been heard.
Jared,
I'm not sure anywhere in my post, where you would think I would ever think they made it up. You are reading what you want to read. Let me be very clear here. I believe ALL Parties involved, did some things that were detrimental to each other and to the church and to leadership. I do not doubt that Foster has had anger issues. I do not doubt that the elders just made a quick decision. BUT I always know, it takes two to tango. I believe all sides messed up, in various ways. It would be nice if you would hear that, instead of putting words in my mouth.
Again and again I see the idea of a large forum between David and the Elders.
If evidence presented is correct, the communication between both parties wasn't good in a meeting room. How is it going to look in an auditorium ?
The idea that we are going to mimic a political debate in a Church is worldly and foolish.
Michelle, If you carefully look at the evidence you see a pattern of obfuscation, denial, and threats from David Foster.
+ The Elders didn't threaten to walk away from BCC.
+ The Elders didn't get a fair say in the Crazy Campaign, Dave Fleming, or a healthy check and balance of the Foster's expense account, nepotistic hirings, etc. All this at a time when the church was going through a financial strain.
+ The Elders didn't deliver, through a proxy, that they would threaten the Foster's financial future in court.
+ The Elders didn't run over to a public park and yell "FIRE" in a crowded theater on Sunday morning. In front of news cameras.
Again, the idea that the elders and staff just got together and embellished stories about the Foster's is basically calling them liars.
As for this blog, just don't read it. If you always equate knowledge of scripture and inquiry as judgementalism then you only stunt your own growth.
Where is the documentation that all of this happened exactly as you say Nathan? Knowledge of scripture? Matthew 18 says take it to the church. Oh, and please don't tell me what to do.
Where was a precedent for Matt 18 in David's handling of many other staff members then ?
Where was it a precedent when people asked him to teach the Bible in midweek services ( at least ) and he told them to find another Church ?
Where is the verse for "my way or the highway?"
See David didn't use scripture to guide much of anything in his dealings with Elders/ staff.
It's not like BCC was a model of the New Test.Church Michelle. It was and may still be similar to a business in terms of operation.
MJ - - -
If it was so important that you and the congregation have a say in important matters - - why
did you wait for a crisis
to happen to object to how the church elders operated ? wasn't it your duty to make sure your church would properly handle an important "issue" before it happened ?
I believe anyone who objects to the "system" after the fact - - - is guilty themselves of not being more pro-active, not
asking questions, finding out more , anything to vocalize that YOU , the
congregation should be in charge ?!
I'm so tired of "the elders didn't handle this properly" excuse. Take
your marbles and go home, if you don't want to play anymore. The rest of us want to stay and make BCC better - - and I would hazard to guess that nearly everyone of us - - believes the "system" and
the "rules " can, and will be improved on. Life is
always a learning process. The elders did not know as they entered
into their "process of change" where each small step would lead them next. They did the best they could with the information at hand each step of the way. It's so great to have 20/20 vision now isn't it ?? I'm sure
the elders wished they had had it while they were in the midst of the 18mos firestorm. They also did not know that DF would dig in his heels and be the major roadblock that he was - kicking and screaming the whole way - as they tried to affect change - - which he could have been such a big part of - - and the torchbearer - but no,
he chose a different path. so be it, but it's not the elders fault.
just another case of let's not take responsibility
for our actions......
this is the fairest, most open, most challenging,
most intellectually stimulating blog on this subject anywhere in this city - - -
if you want to whine,
go back to the talkbcc forum,
I'm not being rude,
just showing some toughlove ,,,,
if you want to stay,
be fair, be open minded,
be critical, but be fair
about what you're criticizing.
one question - if you dare answer - - how long
have you gone to BCC ??????
If you haven't gone to BCC
at least 5 years or more,
you might want to err on the side of caution,
as we have had a tremendous
rate of turnover in staff, pastors, and yes, people
like you and me, over the
17 years of our existence.
and most of it can be traced back to DF.
I've stayed as long as I have - not because of DF -
but because of the tremendous bonds of friendships I have formed here.
also, you might want to be cautious and more knowledgeable about who,
the man, you are defending,
there may be another shoe
to drop in the future
OK folks. Apparently you absolutely do not know me, and you absolutely do not "Get" what I am saying. So I will make this short, sweet, and be done with it. There is nothing that can be done about how the situation was handled, now. I simply said what I thought would be a better idea, is for everyone to hear all sides, at one time. I have talked to elders personally, and I have talked to others personally on the 'other' side if you will. And the story just seems to change a little bit each time. This is my problem. I actually sent out a letter to several people saying the congregation had NO right to vote, and that was David Foster's doing. I am not the naive one who thinks that Dave Foster will ever be back on BCC's stage, nor do I necessarily think he should be. I am not sure where you get that I am completely defending him and his actions. I'm not. I am saying, you are right, BCC was NOT run as a New Testament church, and after all of this that has happened, yes, I have opened my eyes to see why and how it should have been, and I hope that that changes in the future. What my point IS is that I think unless you were there, front and center, you are ASSuming a lot of stuff about everyone!! And if you WERE there, fine, I concede and I am sorry for any pain that was caused you. Like I said before, my vote is to clean house. Of the elders and of the Fosters, and start BCC on a brand new chapter.
Peace out.
PS I have been a member for about 4 years, and was involved in Kids Place, Crazy Campaign, led Conexus Groups, Womens Ministry, etc. I know people and love people from all sides. "Sides" is something I would like to steer from. "Love and forgiveness and prayers" is something I would like to go to. And anything rude, or name calling, or unkindness, I do not appreciate. That is why i am not, and will not, be a part of the TalkBCC forum.
Thanks Evan. I do believe in having a board of elders, I just think I have also learned through this that the congregation should have some voice. I am still uncertain what that voice should be, but it seems like it should be there.
MJ,
I appreciate you. and I appreciate you staying here with us to be possibly another viewpoint. I also have been an active volunteer for 10plus years. What I am concerned about in your
"take" on all this , is that just because you weren't in the room when
things happened - -- you
therefore don't "believe" ?
I think that is unfair, and unrealistic. You have to weigh the evidence and come down with a "judgment" in your own mind, based on that evidence, and yes, on the
credibility and voracity
of the "witnesses".
I also want to see the congregation be more involved. I also want to see BCC move forward more as a NT church, Bible carrying one in fact.
no more slips of paper.
(my own fault for falling for that) - - It's the Bible for me from now on.
I extend my hand to you
Thanks Anonymous. The reason I don't just "believe" is because I have talked to an elder personally and then gotten all of the elders take together- and some of the versions even there are different. I directly asked Randy Thompson what happened that night, and he never answered, although he answered all the other emails I sent him. So when I hear different stories from the same 'side' I have to wonder. I am also upset at everyone involved about the Crazy Campaign. I don't think we even began to know what we needed to, to make an informed decision about giving, and for months we were told we would see new plans and we never did. I actually just asked for my money back for me to get over it, that way I can use it for something that I know will be life changing and God honoring. And yes, I am fully aware that the elders expected to raise $5 mil and that David Foster wanted to raise $15 mil- or so the story goes- which I COULD believe that- but I just don't think any of it went down like was expected.
My observations:
I've been to two meetings, 1 week apart. I didn't notice the story changing. I think they we're able to go through the timeline a little better, and knew what typical questions had been and answered them before they were asked.
Also, at the second meeting several folks who seemed to be from the "Foster camp" spoke out of turn (let them finish their answer before you start grilling them again), and generally tried to twist what the elders were saying. (...come with an open heart...)
I was not "in the room" with Dave at any point (save Sundays with a thousand other people), but I still think there was a problem judging by essentially an entire church-worth of staff and congregation leaving BCC (Cross Point).
I will agree that some of the moves the elders made probably could have done better. Their ultimate action, however, was done prayerfully and over the course of quite some time. This was NOT a quick decision, and they attempted negotiations to keep Dave at BCC in a speaking role.
It's quite possible that Randy T. still has a hard time dealing with what has happened. There are graciously few things in my history that I don't want to revisit... at least not now. I hate to compare, but there are pleanty of sex-crime victims that don't come forward. Dave is not accused of a sex-crime, to be clear, but let's keep in mind that some subjects are hard for people to discuss.
At last Monday night's meeting, the elders did say they want to go to quarterly business meetings with the church, and have much more transparency and congregational input as far as how elders are selected.
I believe that everything happens according to God's plan, and this terribleness is not excluded. Therefore, I continue to pray to learn what is being taught. I think it might be the need for us to become a more tightly interwoven community.
-peace.
At last Monday night's meeting, the elders did say they want to go to quarterly business meetings with the church, and have much more transparency and congregational input as far as how elders are selected.
"now that is the best sentence I have heard in a while."
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