Last Elders Meeting
The final "cottage meeting" with the elders will be tomorrow night (Tuesday). If you haven't yet gone, sign up and go.
posted by Jared @ 6:12 AM
44 comments
BCC is Broken
A place of reflection and focus for Bellevue Community Church. "The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise" (Psalm 51:17).
Monday, August 14, 2006
About Me
- Name: Jared
I'm the husband of Becky, the father of Macy and Grace, a writer of books, and the pastor of a great church. Most importantly, I am a follower of Jesus.
My passion is for the spread of gospel wakefulness in the evangelical church.
Visit me online at www.jaredcwilson.com.
E-mail me at:
Jared AT gospeldrivenchurch DOT com
My books Your Jesus is Too Safe, Abide, and Gospel Wakefulness are available now.
7 Daily Sins is forthcoming from Threads.
The views and opinions expressed here are my own and should not be construed as representing the corporate views of the church I pastor (especially when I'm wrong or when I'm being an idiot).
Previous Posts
- Looking Back (with Some Message Reflection)
- Just Popping In
- Looking Ahead
- The Gospel of . . . (Wait For It) . . . Patience!
- The Scandal of Grace
- Updates
- Proverbs 16:9, Anyone?
- What Form of Church Governance is Biblical?
- The Holy Wild in Suburbia
- Defining Terms
Getting My Philippians On
Basics for Believers: An Exposition of Philippians by D.A. Carson
Paul For Everyone: The Prison Letters by N.T. Wright
The Message of Philippians by J.A. Motyer
An Exposition of Philippians by William Hendriksen
Recommendations
Life Together by Dietrich Bonhoeffer
A Better Way: Rediscovering the Drama of Christ-Centered Worship by Michael Horton
Rediscovering Church by Lynne and Bill Hybels
Brothers, We Are Not Professionals: A Plea to Pastors for Radical Ministry by John Piper
The Radical Reformission: Reaching Out Without Selling Out by Mark Driscoll
Confessions of a Reformission Rev.: Hard Lessons from an Emerging Missional Church by Mark Driscoll
Prophetic Untimeliness: A Challenge to the Idol of Relevance by Os Guinness
The Church in the Bible and the World ed. by D.A. Carson
The Jesus Creed by Scot McKnight
The Divine Conspiracy by Dallas Willard
Getting the Gospel Right by R.C. Sproul
After Our Likeness: The Church as the Image of the Trinity by Miroslav Volf
She Must and Shall Go Free by Derek Webb
44 Comments:
Jared, Can you comment on "The gathering" Have you watched the video? I can't help but feel as if David doesn't think BCC will have the same vision and he wants to start this NEW thing that is different. After listening. I feel as if He is gonna start a church again called "The Gathering". He has called people for that purpose, towards the end of the "message". He starts using statistics to entice people. He has an "agenda". Wouldn't it be best if he stayed away from church planting for a while...maybe just go national and be a speaker?...why not steer people towards BCC...he is harboring bitterness....He has gathered nothing but Dave followers and not Christ followers in my opinion(you can edit that), it is a very dangerous proposition. I haven't heard a "sorry" from Dave regarding his actions at BCC.....
I have not seen the video, and due to my stone age computer capabilities, I doubt I will. Dirk Plantinga has offered to lend me a DVD copy of the event, and I will probably take him up on that offer.
I am torn between wanting to focus less and less on Dr. Foster and his doings and realizing people want to know "news." I may comment on this thing (and additional audit info that has come to light, when confirmed), but I'm not sure how I will do it. In other words, I am loathe to devote yet another main page post to How Dr. Foster Continues to be Unrepentant, when I would like to look forward focusing on our church's future, not on Dr. Foster.
But I'll figure that out soon. Stay tuned.
In the meantime, I will say that based on the info I've seen about the Gathering thing, it seems less like he's wanting to start a church and more like he's wanting to start some Foster franchises or something.
My prayer was that he'd get out of the limelight for a bit and get some help from friends, some folks who could love on him and encourage him and counsel him. And the whole thing about him forgiving people, to be honest, really ticks me off. As long as he continues to play the victim card, I don't think he needs to be leading a church.
But, again, this new vision doesn't sound like a church anyway.
Thanks for the inquiry. I'll try to figure out how to address the Foster-related issues in a way I think consistent with this site's new focus.
I went to "The Gathering" and oddly enough I felt as though I was "cheating" on my church...and ENJOYED it! What the heck does that say now about me? I'm more confused now than I was 2 weeks ago.
Confused, eh? Too bad there's not handy message of late about what to do when one's confused. ;-)
Is sarcasm in the bible too? You are correct though about this past weekends service. I'll go back and read my notes. Thanks for the reminder as I hadn't even thought of that. What I meant by confused though was that I didn't expect to see the Fosters and get a little emotional, but I did. Heck, I thought I was ready to move on. I enjoy Dr. Foster's speaking style. I do wish he would apologize to the people who feel he has hurt them. Whether or not he feels he hurt them doesn't mean he didn't. And I felt that he exploited his friendship with Jeff Fisher. I could've cared less that the coach was there. I guess I have a lot more soul searching on this than I had anticipated. Thanks Jared for the blog.
Lets all just move on.
I think we all need to just get back to doing God's work, whether its at BCC, at a "Gathering" of Dave's or at another church. We should all be in one mind and one spirit. Our goal should be spreading the good news of our Lord and not continuing with any more language that divides us. Let's focus on the future NOT the past.
May the peace and love of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ be with us all
Keith
I agree with Keith. And it's funny how many perceptives can be seen from this. the first commenter, I didn't get that at all. Dave Foster said over and over and over in his message, that he wanted BCC to flourish, to thrive, to do great things. To pray for the church, to support the church, to end the anger, to love one another. He IS sounding to me like he IS planning to plant churches, but he IS unsure. He wants to rest for a few weeks. He DID say at the end that he would be a better man than he was. I DO think he should apologize or seek to restore friendships if he harmed them, but goodness me, why do we need to spend our time judging what he does or does not do? If you don't think he should plant a church, here's an idea. Don't go to it.
We need to spend time to make sure that a person as "influential" as he IS following what he "preaches". Much of what he says has a flavor of disingenuiness along with the GOOD. That he empowers others to lead a life that encourages others to enter into the relationship with their savior...yes of course, and you surround yourself with good counsel...not Craig Barber for example. My comments as Anonymous#1 are that Foster is in NO business to start anything new right now, and should be focusing on other things. He has implied by much of the language that he is starting something "new", whatever that may be, and yes I heard the prayer for BCC to become all she was destined to be, but I didn't hear him endorse people in that room to follow and serve at her again, nor did he say we(both camps) all have the SAME vision to reach people....he wants to retain YOUR faith, favor and pleasure in him(David) for this NEW thing whatever it may be, how is that playing on the same "team?".
You bet we should be critical of leaders like him, SOMEONE has to hold his feet to the fire especially after what has transpired. He(being the leader) should not be above good listening...if he truly believes that God will help take the next step, did he reeally need to incite "supporters" to his next cause at this moment in time?? No.... I think a message of encouragement and thats it...not "the next step for "us" would have been appropriate. I'm actually really done with this too. I AM in the business of doing God's work. Same page, YES, different language and approach, YES. I believe in the MISSION of BCC that without Dave is just as well...she will continue on by God's grace and help.
Is sarcasm in the bible too?
It is, actually, but Anonymous, I certainly didn't mean to be rude with that remark. My apologies for the terseness of it. It is hard to read tone on a blog, but I did mean the comment in a friendly, jokey way. I should have known my winky face would not have entirely communicated that. Sorry.
---
KW
I agree with you. We should be looking forward, and that is my aim with this site.
I do think, though, that going forward often entails dealing honestly with our past. "Those who forget the past..." and what-not, know what I mean?
But I don't want this site to be about Dr. Foster, and I hope readers will trust that I'm doing my best not to talk about him or his efforts any more than is necessary.
I also know that even that little bit will offend or irk some people.
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Michele:
You wrote: If you don't think he should plant a church, here's an idea. Don't go to it.
Will do. (Or "will don't." Something like that.)
I don't know if you also mean to say "Don't talk about it," but as I mentioned, I don't plan on doing that any more than I feel necessary. If you think talking about it at all is a bad idea, I can understand.
I mean to say, we need to move on in whatever way we all choose to. I actually wasn't really referring to you though, because you did state you didn't want to focus on it. I was responding to the other comments. I don't feel anonymous # 1 is letting go. He says he is in his last comment, but he spent the whole comment tearing apart Dave's service and what he should or shouldn't do. I don't think anyone has a right to tell someone else what they should or shouldn't do. If they don't like it don't follow it. Don't be around it. Don't associate with it. But quit wasting time judging what he is doing. Bill and Dave, both said this, by my interpretation, yesterday.
Michele, I'm having difficulty reconciling this:
Don't be around it. Don't associate with it. But quit wasting time judging what he is doing.
. . . with this:
I don't think anyone has a right to tell someone else what they should or shouldn't do
Critical thinking, even criticism, is not "judgmentalism," and even the Bible allows righteous judgment.
It's not my desire to focus on Dr. Foster's new work, but I find your reasoning more based on what you prefer to read about than what is actually okay to do.
Jef Fhisher is the new Jimmy Holt.
Foster needs "money" and influential people to buy into his "whatever's next or new" thing.
Foster will continue to repeat the same cycle as long as he has a breath in his body.
He's done it enough times for anyone to see the pattern.
Not much anyone can really do or say that will change that.
He has his "followers" and they all claim to be followers of Jesus.
But, without dough, Foster can't go. So, all he's really doing is back out on the street "selling" his "gospel of Jesus Christ" in order to perpuate his huge (Donald Trump huge) ego.
What's new? Nothing!
Anonymous,
Did you fall off the turnip truck?
Now you are deciding who Jeff Fisher is. Why don't you go look at your own life?
Everyone could stand to do that more. Leave it alone. Geez.
No Jared, you misinterpret me. So here's my main point.
Bill and Dave have both called for peace. Let's honor that. Whichever side or whichever person we agree with.
umm.. FYI thats a different Anonymous than the previous 2 posts...take care all the anonymouses love you Michele.
Which one is different? I am so confused. Is the Jeff Fisher anonymous the same anonymous as the very first anonymous?
Michele,
Am I to believe that you are ready to move on?
Am I also ready to believe that you don't think David should be accountable for "whatever" happened especially if he is to "start" this new(old) thing?
I think we all want peace.
You can't leave something alone, if it impacts your family and faith directly. Passion is ignited where your heart is and peoples passion for truth can sound "judgemental" as you put it.
Hypothetically...if these financial "items" that are being investigated come to light and are as hideous as some say, are you willing to accept that and move on with David Foster as a leader of a new movement, without remorse or "humility"? I am having trouble with that myself. We trust our tithe to God's work and not to someone's personal bank account. He should be held accountable for that. If not, then who?
I'm ready for the next step that GOd has for me and my family in this, but I refuse to be a complacent sheep.
Anonymous,
No no no no and no. But I think until we know all the facts, and until we hear about the big financial scandal, we need to hug and love our families, and quit throwing crap out, that may or may not exist, and pray for the church (BCC and church as a whole). Have you noticed that the elders, Dave, and Bill have all stopped this madness, but the people have not? Why is that? Make a family decision about what you want to do. Pray about it. Deal with your hurts and confusion. But stop stirring up more. That is my point.
A few questions, regarding Foster and his friendship with Fhisher.
1. Considering the recent, semi-public divorce of Fhisher, where do you suppose the ex-Mrs. and family attend church now? They once, as a family, attended BCC and Foster made it known to all.
2. Do you think Foster was consulted as a pastor or as a divorce counselor, and if he was, what does that say about his ability to adequately or authentically pastor Phisher? And, where did it leave the ex and family?
My point would be that Foster & Fhisher are friends of convenience, not sure who is more convenienced, but it's two monkeys, same tree, with both eating and passing out the banana manna, that is soft, squishy, extremely ripe, if not rotten, and so-so filling. The Gathering, if you listen to the audio, makes their friendship and the nausea of it all even more obvious. Horrific and hilarious, really.
But, in fairness to both of them, they really only have to answer to God, not any of us.
So, in the word's of another great theologian, Paul McCartney (not Foster's Bono), let it be, let it be, let it be, let it be.
It's Fisher. Fisher. Fisher. Who the heck cares. I am divorced. Do you know the circumstances around his divorce? where is this randomness coming from?
You are pulling crap out of a hat.
Weird. This is the strangest thing I have read. Wow.
Just FYI Jared, there a quite a few anonymous posters here..is there a way to track at least the Anon#1 versus Anon#2 etc? You should prolly kill this thread anyway :)
Please do kill. I'm getting confused. And bringing Fisher in, is bizarre.
This thread began with inferences to The Gathering Foster organized and it's implications.
Jef Fisher Fisher Fisher was duly pointed out by Foster as being in attendance, setting up chairs and their personal friendship was alluded to in the audio.
Not really that confusing.
Bringing in his divorce and slinging mud, however, is.
In reference to Foster's pastoral chops vs. his friendship with Fisher?
What mud was slung? It's all public knowledge.
The fact that Foster made such a prominent reference to Fisher being there at The Gathering?
Now I'm confused.
This is my last comment. I don't know what this arguing is all about. Or the point of it. I think it's hideous to bring in Fisher's divorce, when it has nothing to do with anything. I think even Jared said he wanted to stop focusing on the Fosters. So let it go. Drop it!
Wow, that's what I thought I said with the Let It Be reference. But who is officially moderating this blog? You?
If not, then feel free to not comment or read any of what is posted here. What you might find unconnected doesn't determine what others might find connected to the initial thread at the top. Although, the topic of this thread was Last Elders Meeting. Somehow The Gathering at it's implications was introduced by way of a couple of questions. No big deal, really. It's just a blog.
Jared
In my post I said lets FOCUS on the future NOT the past. I DO know what you mean by "those who forget the past" Did you interpret my posting to mean forget the past? If so, thats not what I meant. I think its just time to move on. BCC can do its thing. Dave can do his. If you don't like Dave, don't go to a gathering. If you don't like BCC, don't go. Everybody needs to do their own thing and quit criticizing everyone else.
keith
Wow, where to begin?
Generally:
The Jeff Fisher thing seems barely on topic. If he was at the gathering and Foster mentioned him, it's okay to mention him too.
His divorce, however, is way off topic. I don't know why anyone would want to speculate about Foster's connection to that event, but it just seems like anger wanting to get a jab in. So let's not do it.
Everybody else should realize this post was about the last elders' meeting. The first comment was a legit one, and I tried to answer it.
Since then everyone and their dog appears to want to speak their mind while encouraging others to stop speaking theirs. My options are to delete the whole thread or to ask y'all to chill out. I'll do the latter (for now).
So chill out. ;-)
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Michele:
You wrote: you misinterpret me
No, actually I didn't interpret you at all. I quoted you. You said both "We shouldn't tell anyone else what to do" and then "People should stop criticizing." That's called contradiction.
To you and KW both I want to say that commenting on, and even criticizing, Dr. Foster will not be avoidable at every point in this process.
KW, focusing on the future sometimes entails talking about the past. That was the point I was trying to make.
It's not my intention to focus unnecessary attention on Foster, his new work, and those who might join it. But I do reserve the right to comment on those things and people when it seems called for. Again, I realize some folks may think it won't be called for ever, but they may be better off not reading the site.
I also mention that there hasn't been a main page post on Foster in over a week. So I think I'm doing fairly well with the "focus" thing.
---
Look, guys, the comments are here for conversation. Sometimes topics of conversation are not pleasant. If you can't handle such times with charity and civility, you won't be welcome here. I'm allowing some leeway because wounds are still fresh, hurt is still present. But a good rule of thumb before you hit "Publish" on your comment is to ask yourself this: "Even if it's okay for me to feel this way or say this thing, would it be helpful to do it?"
Not all things permissible are profitable. And stuff. ;-)
---
One final thing:
I've allowed anonymous commenting to allow wide conversation. But the number of Anonymouses is great and the result is confusing. Can you anoymous commenters from now on choose a "handle?" You don't have to register or anything. Just put a name at the end of your comment. You can even make one up. But just so we can keep straight who's saying what, how about adding a name at the end of your comment?
Like so:
-- Jared
Jared,
That sounds like the same thing to me.
No, actually I didn't interpret you at all. I quoted you. You said both "We shouldn't tell anyone else what to do" and then "People should stop criticizing." That's called contradiction.
All right, I'll try to be clearer this time.
You say people shouldn't tell others what to do, and then you tell people to stop criticizing. That is you not following your own advice.
My point, which I hoped I didn't have to make more than once, was that you are doing the very thing you are telling others not to do.
It's very hard to tell people not to criticize without doing some criticism yourself. I get that.
That's why good criticism is important. That's why calling someone's criticism "judgmentalism" is unhelpful.
Does that make more sense? (I hope so!)
Yes it does make more sense. Thanks for clarifying. You may be right. I think I don't email what I am trying to say, clear enough. So here's my whole point. What kw said! hahaha. AND that I think discussion on topics and how an INDIVIDUAL thinks and feels is ok. For instance- your blogs. You write "I think, I want, I feel" etc. Those sentences, I view as YOUR opinion, your thoughts, and you have every right to those. When people comment or people are namecalling or bringing in hateful remarks like about Fisher's divorce that are clearly off topic, that is not ok to me. When people assume they know everything about every situation and want to tell someone else what they need to be doing (unsolicited advice- ) that's not ok to me. Does that make any more sense? If not, just forget it. ;) I'll just drop it.
I'm sorry if I caused hard feelings. I was only trying to be a peacemaker. I wont post here anymore.
keith
Keith,
I liked what you said.
Michele
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
KW, you don't have to leave. Conversation means people will respond to you. I hope disagreeable responses won't preclude you from conversation.
Michele, you're right -- the divorce thing was way out of bounds.
I'm not necessarily asking you to drop anything. I just think we can't have honest conversation if accusations of judging and casting stones, etc. keep getting tossed at the other side. (Just like we can't have an honest conversation if the other side keeps letting its anger/bitterness rule its thinking.)
I'm just saying that if we're going to come up with rules like "Don't criticize," we ought to follow those rules ourselves.
But I think a better way is to encourage and develop sound criticism and right judgment, so that we can deal honestly with what happened.
---
I do hope I'm not running anyone off.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Deleted Anonymous, I am a Titans fan. I'm just one who finds your comments pointless. That's why I'm deleting them.
Say something on topic or un-silly, or I'll keep banishing your words into the cyber-void.
I thought they were the funniest comments I have heard all day. I thought they were quite on topic, since all the other Fisher comments remained.
Love IT!!! YEA GOD!!
The other comments related to his attendance at the gathering. I actually would have deleted the divorce one but everyone started responding to it, and I would have had to delete everybody. I figured just saying it was wrong would have sufficed.
This anonymous person keeps talking about Football Jesus and such, and accusing people of not being real Titans fans. That's silly and disruptive. That's someone just poking fun and not getting what the site is for. If you think those comments are helpful . . . (sigh)
Actually...he isn't. I think he has a great underlying message. It isn't just about football. At least that's not how I see it. I encourage you to think outside the box.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
Ugh. This is getting ridiculous.
I encourage everyone to think inside the box I like to call the Site and Commenting Policy. This isn't a bulletin board where you can post whatever you want.
Messages in comments shouldn't be "underlying." They should be as clear and as honest as possible.
I'm sorry if this makes me an inside-the-box stick-in-the-mud.
Well, not really. ;-)
hahahahaa. Jared. You crack me up.
You're very rule oriented.
Rock on dude.
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